# this is how i mounted my powerballs



## Unity_Jon (Oct 9, 2002)

I'm currently working on my axle and noticed that the original spring perches are off center slightly I used the original mounts to locate my rams through the bridge so i took the original dimensions and created these out of 5mm steel 
[attachmentid=47707]
they need a little 'dressing' with teh grinder to make neat, but as you can see they hold the ram in perfect geometry.
[attachmentid=47708]

just need to reinforce the rest of the axle now.


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## hopper_ali (Apr 29, 2003)

looking good!


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## losixfor (Sep 23, 2004)

that'll do


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## Hypnotic (Jan 16, 2004)

they need to be more towards the front of the car or you are going to bend your cylinders when you 3 wheel.


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## big pimpin (Nov 22, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Hypnotic_@Oct 11 2004, 12:06 PM
> *they need to be more towards the front of the car or you are going to bend your cylinders when you 3 wheel.
> [snapback]2285036[/snapback]​*


Also...if they are not further forward the car may not sit three wheels at all!! The force of the cylinder will hold the axle back and not let it twist forward when you try to three wheel. Seriously.


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## tufly (Jun 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Hypnotic_@Oct 11 2004, 12:06 PM
> *they need to be more towards the front of the car or you are going to bend your cylinders when you 3 wheel.
> [snapback]2285036[/snapback]​*


i tohught they were to far back too


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## BigLinc (Mar 6, 2002)

DAMN, hope u didnt weld them in place yet :0


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## Unity_Jon (Oct 9, 2002)

not sure how you come to that conclusion... 

The cylinders only push the axle down and around the arc made by the trailing arms (these points have not been changed) cylinders are more effective when running verticle than at an angle, less stress on the pumps and shafts ( i know i've had angled rams before !) 


i'd be interested in the physics of why you reckon that 

a)* the cylinder will bend *
in this case the cylinder will be almost verticle all the time, unlike when they are welded directly on top of the axle and they are at an angle to begin with ?

To work out how much movement the cylinder will go through you need to mark a center line at level, then measure on full lift and full drop from the pivot point, this will give you an arc shape, mark this out on card along with the center line, then measure up from the base line the height you will ride at for reference and from the point the two lines cross measure out to the arc, this measurement will be the amount the cylinder will need to move, In my case about 5mm, 5mm at the top of a 14" ram is about 3" at the bottom, more than the axle will ever be able to move. 
[attachmentid=47981]

b) *The force of the cylinder will hold the axle back and not let it twist forward...*
The axle twists forward to keep the pinion angle in range and is controlled by the top trailing arms in conjunction with the bottoms thats why theyre off set.

Dunno if your right or wrong to be honest, but i value your opinions if they're based on fact, its my first G body but not my first trailing arm setup, on paper alignment wins everytime in practice, mocked up for tests it works like a dream too !.


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## stevie d (Oct 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Unity_Jon_@Oct 12 2004, 01:32 AM
> *not sure how you come to that conclusion...
> 
> i'd be interested in the physics of why you reckon that
> ...


forget physics this aint chemistry its lowriding bro i rekon they come up with there conclusions because they have tried what works and what doesnt ,petes has the balls welded directly to the top of the axle tubes and they rams are straight in the trunk and it moves every which way mine has the balls directly on the tubes and it allows me 22" of lift without any binding ,i know who you have been talking to about the angles n shit but trust me dude these guys have probably a lot more knowlege of american cars


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## Chris (Oct 25, 2001)

on g bodies the spring perch is right in the center of the axle not further back......caddy's have them in a different location


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## stevie d (Oct 30, 2002)

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:


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## Unity_Jon (Oct 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chris_@Oct 12 2004, 11:36 AM
> *on g bodies the spring perch is right in the center of the axle not further back......caddy's have them in a different location
> [snapback]2288288[/snapback]​*



Hah aaa, looked at many g body spring perches then Chris ?

Steve i hear what your saying and thats why i posted here, hoping someone with some proven knowledge would post. Looks like apart from you that aint gonna happen :angry: .

if i use a jack to move the axle right through its range i get no binding but cant help wondering what if...and thats why their not welded in place.
i guess at the end of the day were only talking about 5mm offset on te perch platforms so i guess it makes little if any difference.


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## hopper_ali (Apr 29, 2003)

try it and find out, if it dosent work try again


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## HiLow (Dec 31, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Unity Jon_@Oct 12 2004, 11:36 AM
> *Hah aaa, looked at many g body spring perches then Chris ?
> [snapback]2288288[/snapback]​*


this guy lives for g-bodies


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## Hypnotic (Jan 16, 2004)

Trust me I have cut about 30 cars and we put them farther towards the front of the car. If you are 12 inch cylinders or bigger you need to mount them a bit farther ahead because if you tree wheel at any type of speed you can bend the cylinders very easily. When you use larger cylinders that is the only way to get the cylinders straight vertically when the car is locked up all the way. I was just giving advice you can try it however you want, I ve learned from lots and lots of experience.


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## Unity_Jon (Oct 9, 2002)

*Hypnotic.*

thanks, somone with experience, can i ask when you mount the cylinders how tight is the hole through the bridge and the trunk floor ? mine is tight (about 3mm play) and i have some 14" fats in there. I guess what you are saying is that with the top of the cylinder leaning back (powerball mounted forward) the angle of the shaft is in a better postion to deal with shock rather than when its straight up.


*Hopper Ali*, 
I reckon your right dude, if it dont work out its no loss.


Are my ,mounting points different because its a 1980 model Regal perhaps ? doubt it, but they were 10mm offset from center which came as a shock to me but i went with it, who am i to question the GM design team 


Would still apreciate more views on this, anyone with some engineering background ?


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## Unity_Jon (Oct 9, 2002)

been looking for a picture on the net of an un-butchered G body axle, but had to resort to the GM factory workshop manual for the best view....

[attachmentid=48491]

although its one of the tech drawings, they are very accurate and i think you'll agree the spring mounts are off center.... :0


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## air280 (Oct 20, 2001)

3mm is too tight.
from full up to down and full side2side there is a lot of angular movment of the cyl.........to be honest i cant remember what i did on fils, but it was more than that


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## Unity_Jon (Oct 9, 2002)

thats 3mm of free play, not 3mm of angle ! but i hear what your saying, i plan on getting the axle in all its possible positions tonight and measuring each time, then allowing a small gap either side of those measurements to make sure i'm totally clear.

thanks Iain. :biggrin:


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## hopper_ali (Apr 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Unity_Jon_@Oct 13 2004, 07:49 AM
> *
> Hopper Ali,
> I reckon your right dude, if it dont work out its no loss.
> ...


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## Chris (Oct 25, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Unity_Jon_@Oct 13 2004, 06:05 AM
> *been looking for a picture on the net of an un-butchered G body axle, but had to resort to the GM factory workshop manual for the best view....
> 
> [attachmentid=48491]
> ...



don't forget your pinion angle changes at every different height.....


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## stevie d (Oct 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by air280_@Oct 13 2004, 03:06 AM
> *3mm is too tight.
> from full up to down and full side2side there is a lot of angular movment of the cyl.........to be honest i cant remember what i did on fils, but it was more than that
> [snapback]2290734[/snapback]​*


hence the reason for petes "oblong" holes at the end of the day petes car works at very extreme angles without any binding and so does mine and thats good enough for me


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## Unity_Jon (Oct 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chris_@Oct 13 2004, 09:56 AM
> *don't forget your pinion angle changes at every different height.....
> [snapback]2291738[/snapback]​*


thats exactly what the powerballs for isnt it to keep the ram aligned ? The top and bottom arms control the pinion angle and that is something that will need addressing (extending or whatever) its important the the pinion angle is correct at *ride height* as thats when it will suffer the most in daily driving conditions, but how often i drive fully locked up or fully dropped (if i can even ?) will remain to be seen, good point though


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## Juggalo_Gypsy (Aug 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Unity_Jon_@Oct 13 2004, 12:05 AM
> *been looking for a picture on the net of an un-butchered G body axle, but had to resort to the GM factory workshop manual for the best view....
> 
> [attachmentid=48491]
> ...


do you have a tech drawingfor a 95 fleetwood brougham rear axle by chance......


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## Chris (Oct 25, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Unity_Jon_@Oct 13 2004, 06:38 PM
> *thats exactly what the powerballs for isnt it to keep the ram aligned ? The top and bottom arms control the pinion angle and that is something that will need addressing (extending or whatever) its important the the pinion angle is correct at ride height as thats when it will suffer the most in daily driving conditions, but how often i drive fully locked up or fully dropped (if i can even ?) will remain to be seen, good point though
> [snapback]2292406[/snapback]​*


the powerball is just so the cylinder has 360 degree movement at the base of the shaft....before powerballs people ran coil under or heim joints which limited which way the cylinder could travel........but by mounting the powerballs as far back as you have pictured it has the possiblity of binding as the car gets higher or lower from the changing pinion angle or even bending your cylinders


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## Hypnotic (Jan 16, 2004)

3 mm is not enough. I usually have about 1/4 inch all the way around the cylinder. We use 6 inch c channel for the bridge so you don't have to worry about ripping your stock spring perches out. We cut the in side of the perches out so the c channel fits tight to the top of the spring perches .


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## LunaticMark (Jul 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Unity_Jon_@Oct 12 2004, 01:32 AM
> *not sure how you come to that conclusion...
> 
> 
> [snapback]2287239[/snapback]​*



because we have done it... and big pimpin is a pretty fart smucker and I would listen to his advice...  :biggrin:


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## Unity_Jon (Oct 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Hypnotic_@Oct 13 2004, 09:10 PM
> *3 mm is not enough.  I usually have about 1/4 inch all the way around the cylinder.  We use 6 inch c channel for the bridge so you don't have to worry about ripping your stock spring perches out.  We cut the in side of the perches out so the c channel fits tight to the top of the spring perches .
> [snapback]2294439[/snapback]​*


i think we're finding some light at the end of this tunnel now. I also think that the photo's (taken with a phone) may be misleading a little. The powerball isnt that far back (infact its not welded at all so i can move it where i please) If you look at the size of the brake line it looks massive in the pic where as in real life we all know its only about 4mm diameter.

I still intend to mount the powerball directly central to where the spring perch was (not further back :0 ) because then the cylinder will run straight up through the original crossmember spring perch, which is still in place and also covered by 6mm 'c' channel bridge  so its not so different to what Hypnotic has described. I also have the luxuory of being able to remove plenty of metal should i require it as so far i have cut the absolute bare minimum.

I measured the distance from the center of the original axle spring perch to the center line of the axle and it's only 10mm (ish) a powerball can compensate for that easily with 2' of rotation, everytime someone has mounted the powerball on the center line of the axle this has happened wether you like it or not 

If the measurements are not exact i do run the risk of kinking the case of the cylinder where it will bind on the surrounding metal, not bending the shaft. I guess the only thing i'm trying to do is put all the movement into the powerball rather than have the cylinder loose fitting to compensate.

The down side to this is that it may squeak like a bastard, if that happens i'm cutting a fucking great big hole for the cylinder :biggrin:


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## Unity_Jon (Oct 9, 2002)

someone else has also discovered that the springs are not mounted directly over the axle, they also have some good info on pinion angles.



















> *Pinion angle affects the efficiency of the power transmission from the drive shaft to the rear end.  The pinion angle is the spread between the pinion centerline and the drive shaft centerline. For maximum performance, the ideal is to have a slight pinion down angle (min. 2 degrees) under full power.
> 
> 
> Obviously, the pinion angle changes as power is applied and the axle housing begins to twist as the pinion tries to drive the ring gear.  Rear axle wind-up can take some of the initial energy or "hit" away from the launch. As a general rule, a leaf spring rear suspension should have between 5-7 degrees of static pinion angle (angle down); and a factory four-link should be set at 4-6 degrees.
> ...


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## 3onthree (Feb 18, 2004)

when my caddy is fully locked up the cylinders are angled, is that a problem? do they need to be straight when locked up? 10'' strokes.


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## Unity_Jon (Oct 9, 2002)

to be honest, i dont know !?

All i know is that i want my shit straight when at ride height, its strongest when its straight  but you have to compromise.


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## air280 (Oct 20, 2001)

the idael would be if the cyl sits at the original coil angle at "normal" drive height............... but in practise they need to be however they need to be so they dont hit anything at any height


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## str8hick (Oct 28, 2004)

im still tryin to figure out ho wthe cutty does a reverse 3 unless hes just got a chain wrapped around the frame pulling the axle towards the frame, which is nothin special


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## stevie d (Oct 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by str8hick_@Oct 28 2004, 07:07 PM
> *im still tryin to figure out ho wthe cutty does a reverse 3 unless hes just got a chain wrapped around the frame pulling the axle towards the frame, which is nothin special
> [snapback]2338687[/snapback]​*


like this you mean 
















its all to do with weight distribution and no the axle isnt chained up we run a chain bridge on there and it will stand a regular 3 both ways and a dog leg only 1 way


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## rd62rdstr (Jan 12, 2005)

Here's a pic of my powerballs on my g body.


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## tufly (Jun 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by rd62rdstr_@May 2 2005, 11:37 AM
> *Here's a pic of my powerballs on my g body.
> [snapback]3084154[/snapback]​*



y did u put the c channel the way u did y not mount it so the c channel runs with the axel i've never seen it done the way.


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## Tuna_Sammich (Aug 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tufly_@May 2 2005, 04:12 PM
> *y did u put the c channel the way u did y not mount it so the c channel runs with the axel i've never seen it done the way.
> [snapback]3084941[/snapback]​*


I think the way he did it might not look as good, but it's going to be alot stronger.


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## tufly (Jun 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 216RIDER_@May 2 2005, 03:22 PM
> *I think the way he did it might not look as good, but it's going to be alot stronger.
> [snapback]3085015[/snapback]​*



i think your right it would be stronger but as far as making the axel stronger if you span the whole thing with c channel from the backing plate to the pumpkin your helping out the rearend strength then


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## tufly (Jun 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 216RIDER_@May 2 2005, 03:22 PM
> *I think the way he did it might not look as good, but it's going to be alot stronger.
> [snapback]3085015[/snapback]​*



i think your right it would be stronger but as far as making the axel stronger if you span the whole thing with c channel from the backing plate to the pumpkin your helping out the rearend strength then


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## tufly (Jun 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 216RIDER_@May 2 2005, 03:22 PM
> *I think the way he did it might not look as good, but it's going to be alot stronger.
> [snapback]3085015[/snapback]​*



i think your right it would be stronger but as far as making the axel stronger if you span the whole thing with c channel from the backing plate to the pumpkin your helping out the rearend strength then


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## Booyaa63 (Nov 28, 2001)

> _Originally posted by vegashopper_@Oct 14 2004, 12:30 AM
> *because we have done it... and big pimpin is a pretty fart smucker and I would listen to his advice...    :biggrin:
> [snapback]2294484[/snapback]​*



smuck my farts baby


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## rd62rdstr (Jan 12, 2005)

We did it that way for the added stregnth. It will not have the forces of wanting to spread open from the weight of the car. We also reinforced the bottom of the axle.


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## Hoss805 (Mar 11, 2005)

> _Originally posted by rd62rdstr_@May 2 2005, 08:37 AM
> *Here's a pic of my powerballs on my g body.
> [snapback]3084154[/snapback]​*


so when the car is locked up the powerball will sit straight


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## rd62rdstr (Jan 12, 2005)

Yep, the powerball sits straight up. This car turned out real nice, it will go into a 3 wheel and hold it at about 3-5 mph. I can almost do a standing three with 12" cylinders, two pumps and 6 batts. It will teeter back and forth teasing you and then set down real smoothly. This with an Olds 350 up front. I am in the process of adding in the third pump and a chain bridge. I've never seen anything 3 wheel so easily. People at the park are amazed when I pull out of the parking space pulling a three at a crawling pace.


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## Unity_Jon (Oct 9, 2002)

and they thought i was mad when i started this post LOFL....


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## KAKALAK (Mar 11, 2005)

uffin:


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