# How much current does a pump draw?



## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

How many amps does the typical pump draw? Just curious.


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## CoupeDTS (Nov 10, 2007)

The pump is mechanical not elecrical


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## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

The pump is the entire unit, so it is electrical. You're thinking of the pump head


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## 1229 (Sep 16, 2002)

87gbody said:


> The pump is the entire unit, so it is electrical. You're thinking of the pump head



let me see if i can sum this up for you...



real world technical terms vs. _lowrider "slang"_

pump = _pumphead_
endhead = _block_
motor = _motor_
coupling = _pump key_
reservoir = _tank_
power pack = _pump_
power unit = _pump_
the piece of shit thats always catching on fire in your trunk = _pump_



hope this helps.


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## CoupeDTS (Nov 10, 2007)

You forgot gate


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## CP (Aug 9, 2001)

Its hard to put a number on that. Most lowriders "tap" the switch to lift the car, so the only amp reading you can use is the initial start-up of the motor, which will draw as many amps as your batteries can put out. 1000+ amps?


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## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

CP said:


> Its hard to put a number on that. Most lowriders "tap" the switch to lift the car, so the only amp reading you can use is the initial start-up of the motor, which will draw as many amps as your batteries can put out. 1000+ amps?


That's what I was thinking, 1000+ easy. But it can't be as much as you supply, there has to be a limit. Remember it will draw the same current regardless of voltage.

I just figured someone had clamped one already, I'm gonna try it when I get a chance.


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## CP (Aug 9, 2001)

You are correct, I was kinda generalizing. I amp-clamped my hopper years ago, 1840 amps. I figured that to be roughly as much as my batteries could put out. That was double pump, 10 batteries, 120v. I always wanted to try it with higher current batteries to see if the amp draw would change, but I couldnt justify buying the batteries. The car worked with what I had!! lol


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## 1229 (Sep 16, 2002)

CP said:


> 1840 amps


kinda sounds scary when you really think about that, lol.


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## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

CP said:


> You are correct, I was kinda generalizing. I amp-clamped my hopper years ago, 1840 amps. I figured that to be roughly as much as my batteries could put out. That was double pump, 10 batteries, 120v. I always wanted to try it with higher current batteries to see if the amp draw would change, but I couldnt justify buying the batteries. The car worked with what I had!! lol


Thanks for the info. If you ever have the urge to try an expirement, you could wire the batts in series parallel so you have more amperage available , then clamp it again. I'm gonna try it when I get my hands on a clamp meter.


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## MUFASA (Aug 16, 2005)

87gbody said:


> Remember it will draw the same current regardless of voltage.


not true


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## Anson72 (Nov 20, 2007)

TATTOO-76 said:


> let me see if i can sum this up for you...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:roflmao:


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## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

MUFASA said:


> not true




Could you explain? On paper the current should stay the same at or above 12v because the torque does not change, and the torque constant is not dependent on voltage. But I have heard that if a dc brush motor is feed voltage that is way beyond it's tolerance(like we all do) a little bit more current will be drawn mostly due to magnetic saturation. I assumed the difference was negligible. Like I said I haven't had a chance to measure it myself so I would love to hear from anyone who has.


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## sixonebubble (Jan 7, 2011)

I was also curious about the same thing. In fact a few months back some of the engineers from my work tried to measure the current draw while hitting the switch. Turns out the meter we have here only goes up to 500A. So we were unsuccessful. Hopefully someone can post their findings because we are still curious...

I'm sure there are a million threads and books that talk about this stuff. But here's my 2 cents.

A few Electrical FAQ with regard to this topic.

*Does current fluctuate?* The current should stay relatively constant regardless of the voltage. If the current were to spike for some reason, the voltage could dip or even colapse depending on the currents behavior.
*Does the Pump (electrical motor to be more exact) draw the full current available? *The electrical motor (inductive type load) will draw maximum current based on the resistance of the load. So, for example, just because the batteries are 1100 cold cranking amps, doesn't mean that the motor draws 1100 amps. Wire size, motor type and overall resistance of the circuit will limit the current flow.
*How does that little wire handle 1100 plus amps through it without melting?* In this case (hydraulics) the current is momentary, not continuous. 1100 Cold Cranking amps continuous would need a wire as think as your arm for continuous flow.
*Why do motors burn out so fast? *There are a variety of 12V DC motors availblle. Lowriders use a motor that is designed for a 12V DC system. Most lowrider use multiple batteries thus multiplying the voltage provided to the motor. Increased voltage causes the motor to spin faster, therefore reducing the life of the brushes & armature, due to excessive heat and wear.


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## MUFASA (Aug 16, 2005)

87gbody said:


> Could you explain? On paper the current should stay the same at or above 12v because the torque does not change, and the torque constant is not dependent on voltage. But I have heard that if a dc brush motor is feed voltage that is way beyond it's tolerance(like we all do) a little bit more current will be drawn mostly due to magnetic saturation. I assumed the difference was negligible. Like I said I haven't had a chance to measure it myself so I would love to hear from anyone who has.



Ohms law


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## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

MUFASA said:


> Ohms law


:scrutinize:


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## MUFASA (Aug 16, 2005)

87gbody said:


> :scrutinize:


:uh:


Try google ?


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## sixonebubble (Jan 7, 2011)

MUFASA said:


> :uh:
> 
> 
> Try google ?


Yup, GOOGLE knows all!


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## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

MUFASA said:


> :uh:
> 
> 
> Try google ?


Ohm's law is for purely resistive loads, not inductive loads.


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## Hydros (Apr 30, 2002)

sixonebubble said:


> I was also curious about the same thing. In fact a few months back some of the engineers from my work tried to measure the current draw while hitting the switch. Turns out the meter we have here only goes up to 500A. So we were unsuccessful. Hopefully someone can post their findings because we are still curious...


Hopefully it's the VAT or SUN 40 or 60.
forgot how it goes, got the manual somewhere, but something like this, you take the green wire to the amp clamp, and wrap it ten times in, and around the clamp. this would allow you to see 10% of the amps, or 500 amps would be 50 amps. So 2000 amps would be 200 amps, Ask the guys at work if the have the manual or look for it online, then give it a test. 

BTW, what kind of engineers?


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## Hydros (Apr 30, 2002)

CP said:


> You are correct, I was kinda generalizing. I amp-clamped my hopper years ago, 1840 amps. I figured that to be roughly as much as my batteries could put out. That was double pump, 10 batteries, 120v. I always wanted to try it with higher current batteries to see if the amp draw would change, but I couldnt justify buying the batteries. The car worked with what I had!! lol


1000 amps, 120 volts, 
is it the AC volts that can kill?


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## Hydros (Apr 30, 2002)

sixonebubble said:


> *Does current fluctuate?* The current should stay relatively constant regardless of the voltage. If the current were to spike for some reason, the voltage could dip or even colapse depending on the currents behavior.
> 
> Yes the load on the motor depends, just like with pressure spikes
> 
> ...



That aside, hydraulics suck for those that are switch happy, batteries are dead, motor too hot, bla bla, for now.


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## MUFASA (Aug 16, 2005)

87gbody said:


> Ohm's law is for purely resistive loads, not inductive loads.


No its not......y do u think a car amplifier has slots for up to 1/0 cable on some high wattage competion amps ??? And high end home or even dj setups run off 110v w skinny lil wires from the outlets ??? Power is measured in watts...both systems can put out the same power, but one draws less current than the other....because the higher volts needs less current to provide the same wattage, and the lesser voltage, requires more amp to accomplish the same thing


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## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

MUFASA said:


> No its not......y do u think a car amplifier has slots for up to 1/0 cable on some high wattage competion amps ??? And high end home or even dj setups run off 110v w skinny lil wires from the outlets ??? Power is measured in watts...both systems can put out the same power, but one draws less current than the other....because the higher volts needs less current to provide the same wattage, and the lesser voltage, requires more amp to accomplish the same thing


While you are absolutely correct, none of it pertains to this discussion. The example you gave deals with resistive wire. Apples to oranges. If you want to try using that math with an inductive load in a constant voltage circuit you can do so by treating it as a dead short. Try using ohms law with resistance at 0 or as close to it as possible, then adjust the voltage. You will see what I am talking about.


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## MUFASA (Aug 16, 2005)

Edison came to my house last week, they said they were receiving complaints and checking voltage levels. I told him when i would weld lately, the breakers would trip quick. The voltage at the box read 109, he said they should be no less than 114, they regulated it from the main power source to 124v....problem solved....he even said it was drawing more amps because of the low voltage....


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## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

MUFASA said:


> Edison came to my house last week, they said they were receiving complaints and checking voltage levels. I told him when i would weld lately, the breakers would trip quick. The voltage at the box read 109, he said they should be no less than 114, they regulated it from the main power source to 124v....problem solved....he even said it was drawing more amps because of the low voltage....


Sure, but the rules are different with inductors i.e. electromagnetism. Google that shit.


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## MUFASA (Aug 16, 2005)

Ummm, believe what u will.....if thats the case, everyone running the same motors is drawing the same exact amperage ???? Regardless of the voltage applied ????


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## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

MUFASA said:


> Ummm, believe what u will.....if thats the case, everyone running the same motors is drawing the same exact amperage ???? Regardless of the voltage applied ????


No, current draw is mostly based on load...which obviously varies.


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## MUFASA (Aug 16, 2005)

Ok, lemme ask u this......most people believe that noids stick when batts are low ? What would cause this in your opinion ?


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## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

MUFASA said:


> Ok, lemme ask u this......most people believe that noids stick when batts are low ? What would cause this in your opinion ?


Good question I was wondering the same thing. I've always had my 24v switch power off the first 2 batts in the bank that powers my rear pumps. What I noticed was that the solenoids seem to work fine as long as that bank was charged, regardless of how charged the front bank was. I could run the front bank all the way down no problem, as long as the batts powering the switch box were good to go. But when the batts powering the switchbox were low i always got the "clicking" sound, and even stuck a solenoid once or twice.I guess this is the idea when you see some people run a seperate 24v bank just for powering the switches. 

So I definetly think it can happen because of low power to the solenoids. I *think* it has something to do with the contact(not sure what its called) not moving fast enough for the current/voltage, so more time to strike an arc, like with a stick welder. And even if you don't exceed the rated current, the additional voltage will allow it to arc easier. 

What's your take on it?


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## MUFASA (Aug 16, 2005)

.if the voltage is low and noids stick, obviously its not from excessive voltage, but more likely from excessive amperage....??? Like i said, less volts more amps :happysad:


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## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

MUFASA said:


> .if the voltage is low and noids stick, obviously its not from excessive voltage, but more likely from excessive amperage....??? Like i said, less volts more amps :happysad:


Yeah I was thinking the same thing, until I read something that lead me to belive there *should* not be any additional current drawn until the voltage is below the intended operating range, which would be below 12v. So now I'm not so sure. When I get a chance I'm gonna test that with a clamp and volt meter, even if I waste some noids I think it will be worth it.


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## MUFASA (Aug 16, 2005)

:thumbsup:

Nice debate....


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## PAKO PRIMERO (Oct 28, 2009)

MUFASA said:


> .if the voltage is low and noids stick, obviously its not from excessive voltage, but more likely from excessive amperage....??? Like i said, less volts more amps :happysad:


:thumbsup:


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## PAKO PRIMERO (Oct 28, 2009)

P(power)= U(voltage)X I(current)

So ur power is fixed you play on U if you want to increase I.
but on a moteur the intensity will necessarily vary according to the torque being asked


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## Hydros (Apr 30, 2002)

Found the answer:
_Originally posted_* by Unity_Jon*@May 6 2008, 05:41 PM~10591009
from: http://www.layitlow.com/forums/13-hydraulics/179028-not-how-but-why-solnoids-burn-out.html




*I've posted this loads of times, but seeing as the search isnt always helpful here we go again....

Why solenoids stick and burn
When your batteries start to run low on voltage, in particular the ones that supply the 24v to your switches the contacts in the solenoid actually begin to move slower (its only fractionally) but this creats a larger Arc which in turn burns more air surrounding the contacts, this larger burn creats a sooty build up of carbon on the contact points, over time this carbon builds up until the arc melts both lots of carbon together creating a closed circuit (stuck solenoid) which then gets really hot and bursts into flames which sets your trunk on fire and then melts your tyres which increases your carbon footprint and melts all the greenpeace protestors with signs crowding around your burning car which in turn melts the ice caps, but not enough to put your fire out, so always charge your batteries.*


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## Hydros (Apr 30, 2002)

...


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## MUFASA (Aug 16, 2005)

Hydros said:


> Found the answer:
> _Originally posted_* by Unity_Jon*@May 6 2008, 05:41 PM~10591009
> from: http://www.layitlow.com/forums/13-hydraulics/179028-not-how-but-why-solnoids-burn-out.html
> 
> ...


Interesting theory..........but at 24v supply to switches, even if batts are low at 10v ea, gives u 20v @ ur solenoids.......last i checked, we run 12v solenoids ???? So still plenty of voltage present regardless.......


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## 1229 (Sep 16, 2002)

on the subject of solenoids...ive always wired them with an "input" and "output". the input being the power terminal on the same side as the "S" terminal. but ive seen few guys wire them both ways (usually when it makes the wiring more symmetrical)



is there a true "in" and "out"?


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## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

MUFASA said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> Nice debate....


:h5:


MUFASA said:


> Interesting theory..........but at 24v supply to switches, even if batts are low at 10v ea, gives u 20v @ ur solenoids.......last i checked, we run 12v solenoids ???? So still plenty of voltage present regardless.......


That's what I'm stuck on too.



There's gotta be an electronics expert somewhere on LIl.


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## Hydros (Apr 30, 2002)

TATTOO-76 said:


> on the subject of solenoids...ive always wired them with an "input" and "output". the input being the power terminal on the same side as the "S" terminal. but ive seen few guys wire them both ways (usually when it makes the wiring more symmetrical)
> 
> 
> 
> is there a true "in" and "out"?


One of the terminals acts like a ballast resistor. IF I have my facts straight.


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## Hydros (Apr 30, 2002)

just throwing it out, for those that arc or _stick_ weld, any comparison there?


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## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

Hydros said:


> just throwing it out, for those that arc or _stick_ weld, any comparison there?


Higher voltage is easier to strike an arc.


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## 1229 (Sep 16, 2002)

Hydros said:


> One of the terminals acts like a ballast resistor. IF I have my facts straight.


are you talking about the smaller terminals (S & I) im not talking about those, Im talking about the ones that you actually hook the batteries too.


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## 1229 (Sep 16, 2002)

ive always connected my batteries to the terminal with the blue arrow and my pump to the terminal with the red arrow. ive seen a few people do it the other way.....


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## 1229 (Sep 16, 2002)

Hydros said:


> One of the terminals acts like a ballast resistor. IF I have my facts straight.


it has something to do with the ignition while you are cranking the car. if i remember correctly, it supplies the coil with 12 volts when cranking, but i think the old fords used 7-9 volts while running, but required 12 volts to actually start the engine. could be wrong, never actually owned a Ford product until I bought my Ford Escape last year, lol.


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## Anson72 (Nov 20, 2007)

TATTOO-76 said:


> it has something to do with the ignition while you are cranking the car. if i remember correctly, it supplies the coil with 12 volts when cranking, but i think the old fords used 7-9 volts while running, but required 12 volts to actually start the engine. could be wrong, never actually owned a Ford product until I bought my Ford Escape last year, lol.


I've used them both ways for awhile, never noticed a difference personally. As far as the solenoid it's just a different design from a gm starter that has it incorporated into the starter. It's basically a second ignition switch that controls a higher amperage circuit with a lower one.


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## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

TATTOO-76 said:


> it has something to do with the ignition while you are cranking the car. if i remember correctly, it supplies the coil with 12 volts when cranking, but i think the old fords used 7-9 volts while running, but required 12 volts to actually start the engine. could be wrong, never actually owned a Ford product until I bought my Ford Escape last year, lol.


I have heard of something like that, where the ignition is rated for 6v while cranking, so that the available voltage(less than 12 because the starter motor) is more than enough to get it to fire.


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## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

So would a pair of DanielDucati's custom noids in parallel be the ultimate setup?(for street setups)


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## MUFASA (Aug 16, 2005)

TATTOO-76 said:


> ive always connected my batteries to the terminal with the blue arrow and my pump to the terminal with the red arrow. ive seen a few people do it the other way.....


Either way is the same, at least w the accumax....


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## Hydros (Apr 30, 2002)

87gbody said:


> Higher voltage is easier to strike an arc.


Unless you skate it across the work it just sticks.

anyways for nostalgia, never used the aircraft type it's NOS, the large one had silver contacts, exposed and had a hug blinding spark, decided to just stop testing it.


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## BIG RED (Dec 6, 2005)

MUFASA said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> Nice let's masterdebate....


Ummm wat :fool2:


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## hydroandy (Jan 14, 2004)

TATTOO-76 said:


> let me see if i can sum this up for you...real world technical terms vs. _lowrider "slang"_pump = _pumphead_endhead = _block_motor = _motor_coupling = _pump key_reservoir = _tank_power pack = _pump_power unit = _pump_the piece of shit thats always catching on fire in your trunk = _pump_


Have had this discussion with guys trying to parts for their set up locally.


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## MUFASA (Aug 16, 2005)

BIG RED said:


> Ummm wat :fool2:


*** much ? :dunno:


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## ART LOKS (Jan 6, 2010)

Dis topic is food for thawt!


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## BIG RED (Dec 6, 2005)

MUFASA said:


> *** much ? :dunno:


Forgets this is the big boys topic area lol :rofl:


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## AndrewH (Dec 12, 2002)

MUFASA said:


> .if the voltage is low and noids stick, obviously its not from excessive voltage, but more likely from excessive amperage....??? Like i said, less volts more amps :happysad:


Yeah thats why 24v setups blow noids all the time and 96v+ setups rarely do, less voltage :facepalm:


And how does anyone get a 1800 amp draw? A single commonly used hopper battery can only discharge a few hundred amps at the quickness demanded by the motor and the load of the car on it.(the max short circuit discharge current is a literal spec of a battery, not a comparative number like CCAs, otherwise wouldnt people be heating their trunks to activate HOT cranking amps?  ) If mufasa is right at saying more voltage reduces amperage, then how can that amperage draw be multiplied to 1800 when all the batteries are in series?


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## dogbonekustoms (Feb 7, 2012)

Cool topic. I learned a lot of what i know from UnityJon, so i always assumed what he says was the answer to stickin noids.
As far as the stick weldin comparison, i stick welded for years. I learned to lay a good bead with a cheapo 90 or something machine, and when i switched to one that could be turned to 180 the diffrence was AMAZING! Now i only mig btw.
Nice comparison thou, makes it pretty clear.


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## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

AndrewH said:


> Yeah thats why 24v setups blow noids all the time and 96v+ setups rarely do, less voltage :facepalm:
> 
> 
> And how does anyone get a 1800 amp draw? A single commonly used hopper battery can only discharge a few hundred amps at the quickness demanded by the motor and the load of the car on it.(the max short circuit discharge current is a literal spec of a battery, not a comparative number like CCAs, otherwise wouldnt people be heating their trunks to activate HOT cranking amps?  ) If mufasa is right at saying more voltage reduces amperage, then how can that amperage draw be multiplied to 1800 when all the batteries are in series?


I think there is 2 different things going on. 

First would be low voltage from the 24v switchbox circuit like the quote from unityjon on page 2 of this thread. I.E. low voltage=thing inside solenoid moves slower. But if these solenoids function fine in a car with 12v nominal, then why would that even matter? Is it because even though 12v is even slower, it is also more difficult to create an arc at that voltage? So 24v just happens to be the "sweet spot" for lowrider applications..

The second would be when running a relatively high voltage to the pumps(combine with carbon build up from use), it is much easier to arc so that's what happens. If that's true I don't see how running another bank of solenoids(see http://www.layitlow.com/forums/13-hydraulics/345968-anyone-know-why-99-sols-always-three-row.html) could help with sticking, but I'm sure the current being shared by 2 banks would help the overall life of the solenoids.

Just some of my ideas, any input?


Also, I heard this one time "voltage determines how far it will the arc will jump, current determines how much damage will be done". Think of a spark plug.


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## MUFASA (Aug 16, 2005)

AndrewH said:


> Yeah thats why 24v setups blow noids all the time and 96v+ setups rarely do, less voltage :facepalm:
> 
> 
> And how does anyone get a 1800 amp draw? A single commonly used hopper battery can only discharge a few hundred amps at the quickness demanded by the motor and the load of the car on it.(the max short circuit discharge current is a literal spec of a battery, not a comparative number like CCAs, otherwise wouldnt people be heating their trunks to activate HOT cranking amps?  ) If mufasa is right at saying more voltage reduces amperage, then how can that amperage draw be multiplied to 1800 when all the batteries are in series?


Everything has its breaking point.....we use noids that are rated for only 12v, so yeah 96v or more will of course do damage, i never said it wouldnt.....

On another note.....you again :facepalm: i figured u died or something :biggrin:


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## MUFASA (Aug 16, 2005)

87gbody said:


> I think there is 2 different things going on.
> 
> First would be low voltage from the 24v switchbox circuit like the quote from unityjon on page 2 of this thread. I.E. low voltage=thing inside solenoid moves slower. But if these solenoids function fine in a car with 12v nominal, then why would that even matter? Is it because even though 12v is even slower, it is also more difficult to create an arc at that voltage? So 24v just happens to be the "sweet spot" for lowrider applications..
> 
> ...


X2 on "sweet spot" that says it all because we pretty much mickey moused all these setups with using whats readily available....and people running different gears, hoses, volts, high or low cca batts, etc are going to play a part on the whole thing of some noids sticking and others not having a problem.....also the accumax vs autozone noids is another thing.....whole lot of variables


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## 87gbody (Dec 20, 2007)

AndrewH said:


> Yeah thats why 24v setups blow noids all the time and 96v+ setups rarely do, less voltage :facepalm:
> 
> 
> And how does anyone get a 1800 amp draw? *A single commonly used hopper battery can only discharge a few hundred amps at the quickness demanded by the motor and the load of the car on it.*(the max short circuit discharge current is a literal spec of a battery, not a comparative number like CCAs, otherwise wouldnt people be heating their trunks to activate HOT cranking amps?  ) If mufasa is right at saying more voltage reduces amperage, then how can that amperage draw be multiplied to 1800 when all the batteries are in series?


So since motor torque (and therefore current) is determined by load, and load is partially determined by the pump head... Would it be reasonable to choose a pump head based on max current available(maybe pick the highest current pump head that doesn't exceed what can be supplied?), and not by voltage/rule of thumb? If you don't have enough current to spin a large gear like #11, #13 then what good will spinning it faster do?


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## turbospirites (Sep 5, 2005)

lets see the highest hp that a 12 volt pump motor for a power pack is 745 watts "1 Horsepower" Dc Watts to amp calculation

The current _I_ in amps (A) is equal to the power _P_ in watts (W), divided by the voltage _V_ in volts (V):
_I_[SUB](A)[/SUB] = _P_[SUB](W)[/SUB]/_ V_[SUB](V) so it's 65 amps that it would draw at 12 volts the more volts the less the amp draw is to make 1hp [/SUB]


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