# HELP



## ohioswanga (Jan 25, 2005)

I hooked up my isolator and 2nd battery for my system and my lights still dim and batt volts drop to 11. I used a stinger sr200 for my isolator. This is how i installed: alternator to isolator, isolator to 2nd battery, 2nd batt to my amps, and for the true ignition i used my remote wire (is that the problem?) the isolator is grounded and fused properly+i used 4gauge wire. Can someone tell me what i did wrong???


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## 1ofaknd (May 31, 2003)

did you upgrade the big 3?


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## ohioswanga (Jan 25, 2005)

yes


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## Brahma Brian (Nov 17, 2004)

Have you had your alternator tested to see if it's even putting out enough current to support the draw of the amp/s?
Not to mention enough current for the car as well...


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## ohioswanga (Jan 25, 2005)

no, i was hoping i wouldnt have to uprade the alt. im running a kicker kx300.1 and a hifonics bx1800d. Could my problem be anything with the wiring though, because the 2nd batt made no difference at all????


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## Brahma Brian (Nov 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by ohioswanga_@Mar 10 2005, 10:47 PM
> *no, i was hoping i wouldnt have to uprade the alt. im running a kicker kx300.1 and a hifonics bx1800d. Could my problem be anything with the wiring though, because the 2nd batt made no difference at all????
> [snapback]2836051[/snapback]​*


If you are using a stock OEM alternator, you need to upgrade it for that amount of current draw...


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## SDimeBlazin (Oct 14, 2003)

how bad do they dim? I'm sure even with an isolator your lights should still dim somewhat ? :dunno:


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## ohioswanga (Jan 25, 2005)

Darn, ok well i have also been shopping around for alternators and i cant find any sites where i can find what high amp alt will work on my car. Have any suggestions? (I have a 1996 pontiac bonneville)


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## Brahma Brian (Nov 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by ohioswanga_@Mar 10 2005, 11:00 PM
> *Darn, ok well i have also been shopping around for alternators and i cant find any sites where i can find what high amp alt will work on my car. Have any suggestions? (I have a 1996 pontiac bonneville)
> [snapback]2836108[/snapback]​*


http://www.excessiveamperage.com/


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## ohioswanga (Jan 25, 2005)

thanx, so is my true ignition wire okay then?


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## Stealth (Jun 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SDimeBlazin_@Mar 10 2005, 08:58 PM
> *how bad do they dim? I'm sure even with an isolator your lights should still dim somewhat ? :dunno:
> [snapback]2836089[/snapback]​*


the only thing that i can think of that would make lights still dim even with an isolator is, as was mentioned, the alternator's not able to keep up.


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## ohioswanga (Jan 25, 2005)

they dont dim horribly but my volts drop to 11 and my car starts to feel like its going to cut off on constant bass songs.


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## draarong2004 (Feb 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Stealth_@Mar 11 2005, 12:05 AM
> *the only thing that i can think of that would make lights still dim even with an isolator is, as was mentioned, the alternator's not able to keep up.
> [snapback]2836736[/snapback]​*


even then, doesnt a isolator stop reverse current? or does an isolator just make sure the main battery is charged up first, then the second battery, if so, you may have the isolator hooked up wrong, if you even have one.


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## Stealth (Jun 7, 2003)

an isolator seperates both batteries. 

hey dude, try this: turn the engine OFF, and then turn your system up high, and see if the lights dim then. if they do still dim, you've hooked something up wrong, or have a faulty isolator or something. if they don't dim, and they only dim when the engine's on and running, then your alternator can't keep up... that would be my guess, since on hard hits, the alternator's charging the second battery, and not as much current is going to the primary battery, which i why you see a slight dim in the lights.


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## ohioswanga (Jan 25, 2005)

with the car off the lights would dim more because no batts are being charged. Right??


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## Stealth (Jun 7, 2003)

no, with the car off, the lights shouldn't dim _at all_, because the battery connected to the engine/lights/etc is seperate (via the isolator) from the battery connected to the amplifiers (which are drawing all the power when he's running his system)


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## ohioswanga (Jan 25, 2005)

if the lights dont dim with the car off could this mean that the isolator is working when the car is off but not working when its on??? this is why i was questining my true ignition wire because in some forums i read people got isolators so they could play their music at shows with the car OFF an not have their main batt drain?????


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## Stealth (Jun 7, 2003)

right, people get isolators so that their main battery doesn't get affected, and so there's no strain on the car electrical system. this could be because they need the extra buffer with a big system, or they want to play their system with the car not running (like, at parties, shows, etc.), or other reasons.

if the lights don't dim with the car off, but DO dim with the car on, that means it's most likely your alternator, but even that shouldn't be MUCH of a dim, just very slight, hardly visible.

EDIT: a "true ignition" wire i think most people use for when the car's cranking, to use both batteries (it's easier to start a car when it's drawing power from two batteries than just one, because starting the car takes more power than all other electrical drains in your car put together)... however the "crank" wire in the ignition switch is only active when the car's cranking... all other times it'll be dead, meaning the batteries will be seperate, and the system will drain power from the 2nd battery only, and the engine from the 1st battery only. note that the "true ignition" source is different from your HU accessory wire (red).

you don't HAVE to hook the true ignition wire up to anything, but what would be cool is if you hook up a switch, that if ever your main battery dies, you just flip the switch, and in effect jump-start your own car (from the second battery), since when you flip the switch, the batteries will now be running parallel. be sure to hook the power going to the switch to the second battery, however, since it would be pointless if you're trying to feed the true ignition switch with 12v when the battery (primary battery) is dead


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## ohioswanga (Jan 25, 2005)

for the true ignition wire i used my blue remote wire from my HU. Are u saying that i should just not use a true ignition wire on my isolator?


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## draarong2004 (Feb 20, 2005)

did you see if your lights dim from playing the radio while the car is off?


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## Stealth (Jun 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ohioswanga_@Mar 13 2005, 04:00 PM
> *for the true ignition wire i used my blue remote wire from my HU. Are u saying that i should just not use a true ignition wire on my isolator?
> [snapback]2846028[/snapback]​*


OOOOOOOOOOH that makes sense (why your lights are dimming)!!!

see, as far as i know, the "true ignition" wire, when powered, bypasses the isolator, and connects the batteries in parallel (as opposed to them being seperated when the true ignition wire doesn't have power).

so by you connecting the true ignition wire to the HU remote, when you put your stereo on, both your primary battery and your secondary battery, instead of being isolated, are connected in parallel!

Try this: disconnect the true remote wire, and your lights shouldn't dim.


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## ohioswanga (Jan 25, 2005)

I tried disconnecting the remote wire from the isolator and i get no power to my system at all. got anymore sugestions? is there anything else i should try to connect to the true ignition post so my batteries will be isolated when my car is ON??


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## 1ofaknd (May 31, 2003)

if you disconnected it...you gotta reconnect it to another switched power source. (wiper fuse perhaps?)


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## Stealth (Jun 7, 2003)

the true ignition wire, when powered, connects the batteries in PARALLEL (as far as i know)... you don't want that. 

when all else fails, read the instructions that came with the isolator. i may have my definition of the "True ignition" wire confused with something else


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## ohioswanga (Jan 25, 2005)

-this sux


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

The isolator has a relay in it. It doesnt matter what 12v source you use, its going to turn it on. It will not seperate them any other way in series or parallel or individual. It's a mechanical device, its not a computer. It's dumb, you give it power, relay triggers, power pases. They want a true ignition source so you dont wire it to accessory and defeat the purpose, or wire it to a device like the radio and defeat the purpose. The point of the device is to keep the batteries from being connected to each other when the vehicle is not running and charging. If its wired correctly, you can play the radio till the back battery goes dead and you can still start the vehicle. With the ignition wire hooked up to the radio remote wire, when the radio is on its paralleling the batteries making it pointless.


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## ohioswanga (Jan 25, 2005)

so can anyone tell me what to hook it to without taping into the elecrical system??


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## Stealth (Jun 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ibanender_@Mar 14 2005, 07:01 AM
> *The isolator has a relay in it.  It doesnt matter what 12v source you use, its going to turn it on.  It will not seperate them any other way in series or parallel or individual.  It's a mechanical device, its not a computer.  It's dumb, you give it power, relay triggers, power pases.  They want a true ignition source so you dont wire it to accessory and defeat the purpose, or wire it to a device like the radio and defeat the purpose.  The point of the device is to keep the batteries from being connected to each other when the vehicle is not running and charging.  If its wired correctly, you can play the radio till the back battery goes dead and you can still start the vehicle.  With the ignition wire hooked up to the radio remote wire, when the radio is on its paralleling the batteries making it pointless.
> [snapback]2848163[/snapback]​*


yup, that's exactly what i said (in not as many words maybe )

ohioswanga: basically, as i said, when the true ignition is powered, the batteries are connected in parallel (i.e. the isolator's pointless). what you're SUPPOSED to do is connected it to the "crank" position of the ignition switch, which is only hot when the engine's cranking (so you get the extra "kick" when you're starting the engine, from both batteries). what i'd recommend you do is either that, or wire it to a switch, so that if ever you want both batteries connected, for some reason, you just flip the switch, and it's done.

EDIT:


> *I tried disconnecting the remote wire from the isolator and i get no power to my system at all*


i'd say that means you hooked something up... because even with NO isolator, your system should still play, you know?


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## draarong2004 (Feb 20, 2005)

sounds like someone doesn't know what the hell they are doing, and are about to fry themselfs under the hood of the car, dude, you best get a shop to do this, its all i can recomend from this point on.


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## ohioswanga (Jan 25, 2005)

In the beginning of the post i explained how i wired. Everything was according to instructions except the true ignition wire, anyway thanx for all the help guys


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## Stealth (Jun 7, 2003)

i'm telling you man, try what i said, and let me know how it goes q


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## ohioswanga (Jan 25, 2005)

I dont know where the "crank" position is on the ignition swith is. If u can tell me where the ignition swith is ill try it.


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## draarong2004 (Feb 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by ohioswanga_@Mar 15 2005, 01:18 AM
> *I dont know where the "crank" position is on the ignition swith is. If u can tell me where the ignition swith is ill try it.
> [snapback]2852163[/snapback]​*


crank position is when it starts the car...durrrr


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## Stealth (Jun 7, 2003)

he means he doesn't know how to hook it up to that.

don't worry about hooking that up. if you want, you can just leave that disconnected for now, and then in the future put a switch between a 12v source in the car, and the true ignition lead, should you ever need it.


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## ohioswanga (Jan 25, 2005)

The isolator relays the power from the alternator to my 2nd battery. If the true ingition source is not hooked up then my isolator does not let power go from the alt to my amps. There is a sort of input for power and output for power on the isolator, all connections need to be made to get my amps to power up. In the pic the two big posts are the input and output i was referring to...


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## Stealth (Jun 7, 2003)

yeah i was thinking of something else then. my mistake. 

you may need to refer to the instruction manual when all else fails :-/ or ibaneder or someone may help you out


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## maniak2005 (Mar 13, 2005)

also get a cap on that amp (1 full farad for every 1000 watts/0 it will help alot. also upgrade the alt. you can try www.ohiogenerator.com
they should be able to help. also try stinger
www.stingerelectronics.com


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## LacN_Thru (Jun 22, 2004)

> _Originally posted by maniak2005_@Mar 15 2005, 08:31 PM
> *also get a cap on that amp (1 full farad for every 1000 watts/0 it will help alot. also upgrade the alt. you can try www.ohiogenerator.com
> they should be able to help. also try stinger
> www.stingerelectronics.com
> [snapback]2855762[/snapback]​*


he just bought a second *BATTERY*, he doesn't need 2 batteries *AND* a cap. Besides, caps are pretty much worthless anyway. :twak:


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## draarong2004 (Feb 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maniak2005_@Mar 15 2005, 08:31 PM
> *also get a cap on that amp (1 full farad for every 1000 watts/0 it will help alot. also upgrade the alt. you can try www.ohiogenerator.com
> they should be able to help. also try stinger
> www.stingerelectronics.com
> [snapback]2855762[/snapback]​*


and yet another n00b who fell victim to a salesman telling him to get a cap, bout the only 2 things a cap does, is help drain the battery faster, and lower voltage.


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## Stealth (Jun 7, 2003)

lowers system voltage and drains the battery faster, eh?


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## draarong2004 (Feb 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Stealth_@Mar 16 2005, 04:25 PM
> *lowers system voltage and drains the battery faster, eh?
> [snapback]2859762[/snapback]​*


well, lets think of the logic shall we, a amp drains power at a un-constant rate, a cap is designed to draw power at a constant rate. so if a cap is drawing power to keep the lights from dimming as bad, wouldn't one realize that its draining that much more power when a sub note isnt playing?
here's a really great idea, GET A BIGGER ALTERNATOR.


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## Stealth (Jun 7, 2003)

oh i wasn't disagreeing with you, just testing you. 

although i'm still not sure you know exactly what you're talking about, but you've got the right idea at least. good job.


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## draarong2004 (Feb 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Stealth_@Mar 18 2005, 12:13 AM
> *oh i wasn't disagreeing with you, just testing you.
> 
> although i'm still not sure you know exactly what you're talking about, but you've got the right idea at least.  good job.
> [snapback]2867017[/snapback]​*


lets put it this way, cap=waste of money....lol


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## maniak2005 (Mar 13, 2005)

a cap dos not drain any more power than it has to. when a bass note hits and the amp drains it power (lights dim) the cap releases some power to keep the voltage even and not dip. a cap is like a really short burst battery. it couldn't run an amp for more than about 1 secound or so at full volume. all it's designed to do is keep the voltage from dropping on bass notes . if you use abigger alt and a cap u won't have a problem. use 1 farad for every 1000 watts.


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by maniak2005_@Mar 19 2005, 06:05 PM
> *a cap dos not drain any more power than it has to. when a bass note hits and the amp drains it power (lights dim) the cap releases some power to keep the voltage even and not dip. a cap is like a really short burst battery. it couldn't run an amp for more than about 1 secound or so at full volume. all it's designed to do is keep the voltage from dropping on bass notes . if you use abigger alt and a cap u won't have a problem. use 1 farad for every 1000 watts.
> [snapback]2873659[/snapback]​*


The problem is, the cap doesnt have enough capacity to keep voltage from dipping. You just said yourself a cap wont power an amp for 1 second. If it can't power it for 1 second, what good is it doing you? The bigger alternator is what helps.


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## maniak2005 (Mar 13, 2005)

the cap helps on the instant bass notes it's not a lead acid battery the alt will help but it can't supply the instant power change(s) of bass.
I want you to explain to me how the cap dosen't have enough capacity. It's not a [/B]battery. that's it's main purpose to keep a constant power flow with no voltage dips


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## Stealth (Jun 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by draarong2004_@Mar 18 2005, 02:48 AM
> *lets put it this way, cap=waste of money....lol
> [snapback]2867454[/snapback]​*


right. 

unless if you're going for show, because i hate to admit it, but to see a well-designed system with two or three capacitors lined up with their blue volt-meter LEDs, they may be pointless, but they look cool


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## maniak2005 (Mar 13, 2005)

alt always needs to be upgraded that's the bottem line but the cap will help. i have never used one personally but i know alot of people that frying alts untill it was installed. Some people like them some don't anyways were all trying to do 1 thing while were driving down the street uffin:


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## draarong2004 (Feb 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maniak2005_@Mar 19 2005, 09:45 PM
> *alt always needs to be upgraded that's the bottem line but the cap will help. i have never used one personally but i know alot of people that frying alts untill it was installed. Some people like them some don't anyways were all trying to do 1 thing while were driving down the street  uffin:
> [snapback]2874615[/snapback]​*


ok, your starting to get annoying, you never need a cap, it might look cool in a show setup, but you never need a cap, just upgrade the alt, and get a 2nd or 3rd battery, only reason you would fry an alt, is because its not big enough for the load being drawn, and a cap isnt gonna help any, only way it would help, is by restricting how much power goes to the amp, yes restrictin, aka less power to the subs.
stop trying to give advice that you heard from the guy that works at radio shack, you'll only look like a n00b doing that.


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by maniak2005_@Mar 19 2005, 10:21 PM
> *the cap helps on the instant bass notes it's not a lead acid battery the alt will help but it can't supply the instant power change(s) of bass.
> I want you to explain to me how the cap dosen't have enough capacity. It's not a *battery. that's it's main purpose to keep a constant power flow with  no voltage dips
> [snapback]2874490[/snapback]​[/b]


When you start your car, do you have to wait for the battery to get power? Hey what do ya know, thats instant power. What does an alternator do? It constantly supplies power, which means there is no physical way to have a delay in power supply. You want me to explain how a cap doesn't have enough capacity? Let's get schooled shall we?!

1 Farad is = to 1 Coulumb per 1 volt
1 Coulumb is = amps per seconds

Do the math, 1 farad is good for 4.2 amps for 3 seconds at 12.6v and even if you had 14.4v (which you dont) its still 4.8 amps for 3 seconds.

An amplifier that does 1000 watts, at 70% efficiency and 13.6v (typical class D on common in car voltage) will draw 105 amps. When you have over 100 amps of draw, where is it that 4 amps helps? That's 3% of whats being drawn. There have been tests that show caps keep your voltage constantly lower than without the cap. Constant voltage (if that even happened) does you no good when its lower than without.


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by maniak2005_@Mar 19 2005, 10:45 PM
> *alt always needs to be upgraded that's the bottem line but the cap will help. i have never used one personally but i know alot of people that frying alts untill it was installed. Some people like them some don't anyways were all trying to do 1 thing while were driving down the street  uffin:
> [snapback]2874615[/snapback]​*


You've never owned one, but you're the expert on them? Why don't you own one if they are so great?


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## maniak2005 (Mar 13, 2005)

i have built small caps out of nickels and dimes and wax paper my father teaches electronics. so i know what i'm talkingh about. second if caps were pointless than why do almost every competitor use them. And a cap is not to supplt amps it's to supply voltage. a cap once fully charged will not draw any more power. and how is a cap going to restrict power when it's wired in parallel. I can'rt stand the people at radio shaft because they don't know what they're talking about. and adding batteries dosen't do anything more than allow the stereo to play longer with the vehicle turned off. ask any real pro why they work and how they work because your trying to argue something that it's not even for. lights dim on your car because your alt can't supply the voltage when the bass amp needs it so the voltage level falls thus making the light dim. i will look through past magazines where the questions have been asked from other people and i will post them on here


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## 1ofaknd (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ibanender_@Mar 20 2005, 09:26 AM
> *
> Do the math, 1 farad is good for 4.2 amps for 3 seconds at 12.6v and even if you had 14.4v (which you dont) its still 4.8 amps for 3 seconds.
> 
> [snapback]2875995[/snapback]​*


heeeyyy....i maintain 14.4V in my car :biggrin:


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## 1ofaknd (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by maniak2005_@Mar 20 2005, 04:58 PM
> *i have built small caps out of nickels and dimes and wax paper my father teaches electronics. so i know what i'm talkingh about. second if caps were pointless than why do  almost every competitor use them.
> 
> 
> ...


name a REAL competitor who rely's on caps to win.


and magazines....now we all know where your know how comes from!! :0


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by maniak2005_@Mar 20 2005, 04:58 PM
> *i have built small caps out of nickels and dimes and wax paper my father teaches electronics. so i know what i'm talkingh about. second if caps were pointless than why do  almost every competitor use them. And a cap is not to supplt amps it's to supply voltage. a cap once fully charged will not draw any more power. and how is a cap going to restrict power when it's wired in parallel.  I can'rt stand the people at radio shaft because they don't know what they're talking about. and adding batteries dosen't do anything more than allow the stereo to play longer with the vehicle turned off. ask any real pro why they work and how they work because your trying to argue something that it's not even for. lights dim on your car because your alt can't supply the voltage when the bass amp needs it so the voltage level falls thus making the light dim. i will look through past magazines where the questions have been asked from other people and i will post them on here
> [snapback]2877398[/snapback]​*


If your dad teaches electronics, I'm sorry for his students. Just because you know somebody that knows, doesnt mean you know yourself. I'm a competitor, I don't use them, I can give you a list of 4000 other competitors that dont either. Yeah, thats most competitors that DONT. Do you have any comprehension of what electricity is? A capacitor does not create voltage. Any electronic device works on a given voltage and current, which is AMPS. That's electronics, your dad should know that. Right, when a cap is fully charged it wont drain any power, but when you put a load on it (I.E. an amplifier) its no longer charged fully, so it now takes current to run the device AND charge the cap back, yielding lower voltage. Maybe its the people at Radio Shack that DO know they are talking about and its you that doesn't, ever think of that? If batteries don't do anything but let you play with the car off, why is it that competitors have banks of batteries for use with the car running? I can point out one right off that uses 3 alternators and 140 batteries to power 12 6000 watt amps WHILE ITS RUNNING. You want me to ask a pro? OK, hey self, is ibanender right? Why yes he is! There, I asked a pro. Yes, lights dim because of low voltage caused by the amp drawing CURRENT. BATTERIES have the capacity to help with the load, caps do not.


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 1ofaknd_@Mar 20 2005, 05:02 PM
> *heeeyyy....i maintain 14.4V in my car  :biggrin:
> [snapback]2877417[/snapback]​*


Unless you've got a hot rated alternator with a bank of batteries and virtually no current draw, you dont have 14.4v all the time, and I mean ALL the time.


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## maniak2005 (Mar 13, 2005)

here is a clip from lowrider about multiple audio batts (nov.2002) on page 155


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## draarong2004 (Feb 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maniak2005_@Mar 20 2005, 04:13 PM
> *here is a clip from lowrider about multiple audio batts (nov.2002) on page 155
> [snapback]2877497[/snapback]​*


boy, you believe anything don't you, i could sell you my jensen xs1010 sub for 150 bux, if i told you it was a jl sub, and put a jl dustcap on it.


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## Brahma Brian (Nov 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by draarong2004_@Mar 20 2005, 05:16 PM
> *boy, you believe anything don't you, i could sell you my jensen xs1010 sub for 150 bux, if i told you it was a jl sub, and put a jl dustcap on it.
> [snapback]2877523[/snapback]​*


And put it in a JL Stealthbox enclosure...


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## maniak2005 (Mar 13, 2005)

no i don't think so. so also your saying that info is wrong


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## draarong2004 (Feb 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maniak2005_@Mar 20 2005, 04:21 PM
> *no i don't think so. so also your saying that  info is wrong
> [snapback]2877544[/snapback]​*


yes, we are saying that info is wrong.


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## maniak2005 (Mar 13, 2005)

my uncle used to compete in iasca for 3 years in the 301-600 watt ameture class. he used the stock alt with 2 optima red top 6 volt batts with a pheonix gold 1 farad cap. he never lost below third place and was invited to the national finals in LA. go to a real comp and check it out and talk to people who compete for a living


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## maniak2005 (Mar 13, 2005)

so then you better call lowrider and every other pro installer and tell them there wrong :roflmao:


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## maniak2005 (Mar 13, 2005)

i'll let you guys blow shit up have fun


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## draarong2004 (Feb 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by maniak2005_@Mar 20 2005, 04:26 PM
> *so then you better call lowrider and every other pro installer and tell them there wrong :roflmao:
> [snapback]2877573[/snapback]​*


guess what, they told you to use one, because its a selling point, and they get a kickback for writing stuff like that, durrrrrrrr.


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## Brahma Brian (Nov 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by maniak2005_@Mar 20 2005, 05:21 PM
> *so also your saying that  info is wrong
> [snapback]2877544[/snapback]​*


That is ONE MAN giving his opinion...
That does NOT make it FACT...
It also will NOT apply to every application...
It also does NOT mention a WORD about caps...
No one here is arguing the fact that the alternator needs to be upgraded...
If you try to say that a cap will help you more than a good second battery will,
you will only confirm that you are as ignorant as I believe you to be...


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## Stealth (Jun 7, 2003)

if you think about it, in theory, the idea behind a capacitor is a good one: have a temporary backup, a buffer as it were, for the split seconds when the amp's drawing a lot more current than usual (when it's hitting, on the beat, etc.). but if you think logically, the capacitors that you can buy don't qualify :-/ they just don't work, and there have been experiments and such to prove it.


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## draarong2004 (Feb 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Stealth_@Mar 20 2005, 04:38 PM
> *if you think about it, in theory, the idea behind a capacitor is a good one:  have a temporary backup, a buffer as it were, for the split seconds when the amp's drawing a lot more current than usual (when it's hitting, on the beat, etc.).  but if you think logically, the capacitors that you can buy don't qualify :-/  they just don't work, and there have been experiments and such to prove it.
> [snapback]2877619[/snapback]​*


i think, if you were to buy a cap in hopes that it would work, in theory, wouldn't it be better to buy the biggest cap you could find, rather than just buying a 1 farad cap, not that i personally will ever buy a cap, just wondering what some of the others think of this theory.


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by maniak2005_@Mar 20 2005, 05:13 PM
> *here is a clip from lowrider about multiple audio batts (nov.2002) on page 155
> [snapback]2877497[/snapback]​*


I'll just ignore the entire thing to get to the point... where does it say caps are good?


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by maniak2005_@Mar 20 2005, 05:26 PM
> *my uncle used to compete in iasca for 3 years in the 301-600 watt ameture class. he used the stock alt with 2 optima red top 6 volt batts with a pheonix gold 1 farad cap. he never lost below third place and was invited to the national finals in LA. go to a real comp and check it out and talk to people who compete for a living
> [snapback]2877568[/snapback]​*


So, because you know 1 person that used a cap AND EXTRA BATTERIES that makes everybody using them? I've been competing for 6 years, the only reason people use them in SQ is for looks to get install points, and nobody uses them in SPL, and hasn't for a while. Guess where the power draw is at? SPL.

Name 1 person who competes for a living. You can't, because there isn't prize money. It's not hard to never get lower than 3rd when there is only 3 people in the class.


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by maniak2005_@Mar 20 2005, 05:26 PM
> *so then you better call lowrider and every other pro installer and tell them there wrong :roflmao:
> [snapback]2877573[/snapback]​*


You mean call the magazine that has to do with hooptie mods, not specifically stereos? They dont sound like experts to me. BTW, a pro installer has been telling you you're wrong. Why dont you go buy a cap from JL, wait, JL doesnt make a cap. Even your boys don't believe in caps!


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## 1ofaknd (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ibanender_@Mar 20 2005, 05:12 PM
> *Unless you've got a hot rated alternator with a bank of batteries and virtually no current draw, you dont have 14.4v all the time, and I mean ALL the time.
> [snapback]2877490[/snapback]​*


well i was measured everything on about a 4 second burp and the the voltage only dropped about a tenth from that, on the rear batt with the car at idle. 

and i was wearing a cap!! (keeps the sun outta my eyes) :biggrin:


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## Cruiser4875 (Nov 25, 2004)

get a bigger alternator


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## draarong2004 (Feb 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by 1ofaknd_@Mar 20 2005, 07:04 PM
> *and i was wearing a cap!! (keeps the sun outta my eyes)  :biggrin:
> [snapback]2878324[/snapback]​*


 :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 1ofaknd_@Mar 20 2005, 08:04 PM
> *well i was measured everything on about a 4 second burp and the the voltage only dropped about a tenth from that, on the rear batt with the car at idle.
> 
> and i was wearing a cap!! (keeps the sun outta my eyes)  :biggrin:
> [snapback]2878324[/snapback]​*


What amps? How many batts? What size alternator?


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## Stealth (Jun 7, 2003)

ya know, i've never experienced this personally, but it's weird how so many people say "you know, my lights don't dim NEAR as much since i got a capacitor"

:-/


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## draarong2004 (Feb 20, 2005)

> _Originally posted by Stealth_@Mar 21 2005, 08:16 AM
> *ya know, i've never experienced this personally, but it's weird how so many people say "you know, my lights don't dim NEAR as much since i got a capacitor"
> 
> :-/
> [snapback]2880518[/snapback]​*


i think they are ignroing the lights dimmin, because in their small lil mindz, they wanna think it's really working. yet a cap doesn't help that much.


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## Stealth (Jun 7, 2003)

i'm going to actually do more research into this, i've been meaning to for a while. 

i'm not going to delve into theory, just reality. like, i'm going to cap my system temporarily, and keep the volume at a certain level, playing a certain series of frequencies, and see if i can notice a VISIBLE difference in the lights dimming.

then i'm going to do that to a few friend's cars. i'll use a few types of capacitors too, but i'll stick with 1 farad.


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## draarong2004 (Feb 20, 2005)

if you do do that, get with a set number, and try doing it to over 10 cars, don't forget to keep the cap close to the amp, like what is recomended.


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Stealth_@Mar 21 2005, 09:16 AM
> *ya know, i've never experienced this personally, but it's weird how so many people say "you know, my lights don't dim NEAR as much since i got a capacitor"
> 
> :-/
> [snapback]2880518[/snapback]​*


Mine used to dim from driving to idle. I upgraded the big 3 and what do ya know, it quit doin that. Another easy fix is tightening a possibly loose alternator belt. Both are much cheaper than a cap, and actually prove to do something.

Something to ask..... if the cap is supplying power to the amp (thats why they say to put it close right?) then how would that do anything for your lights? That's like saying your car is gonna get charged up from your buddies alternator cause he's parked next to you.


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## 1ofaknd (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ibanender_@Mar 21 2005, 08:48 AM
> *What amps?  How many batts?  What size alternator?
> [snapback]2880415[/snapback]​*


two batts, stock alt (105A i think) orion 2500D


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 1ofaknd_@Mar 21 2005, 05:33 PM
> *two batts, stock alt (105A i think) orion 2500D
> [snapback]2883394[/snapback]​*


If you have 2 batts and at idle you dont drop below 14.3, that amp isn't doing more than about 50 amps of draw tops, which is 500 watts presuming that voltage. When I had 2 batts in my car with 118 amps of draw and a 150 amp alternator I went from 14.5v to 13.6v on a burp.


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## 1ofaknd (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ibanender_@Mar 21 2005, 05:43 PM
> *If you have 2 batts and at idle you dont drop below 14.3, that amp isn't doing more than about 50 amps of draw tops, which is 500 watts presuming that voltage.  When I had 2 batts in my car with 118 amps of draw and a 150 amp alternator I went from 14.5v to 13.6v on a burp.
> [snapback]2883489[/snapback]​*


if i plug in ohm's law, i figure about 2500-2600 watts when i burped it. do i really gotta go take pics of the meter when i do it?? :biggrin: lmao


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## Stealth (Jun 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ibanender_@Mar 21 2005, 02:23 PM
> *Something to ask..... if the cap is supplying power to the amp (thats why they say to put it close right?) then how would that do anything for your lights?  That's like saying your car is gonna get charged up from your buddies alternator cause he's parked next to you.
> [snapback]2882950[/snapback]​*


mine _still_ dim.

naaa the reasoning is; the reason lights dim when the bass 'hits' is because at those points the amp(s) is(are) drawing more than usual, and so therefore voltage in the entire car will drop (and you see the effect of this in the lights dimming).

so far it's correct. that really is what happens.

however, people that buy capacitors believe that the capacitor will gradually draw current, and then when the amp needs a kick of power, the capacitor will act as a buffer between the amp and the battery, and will then charge itself back up at a steady pace.

in theory that should work. should work fine. but unfortunately that's usually not how it works :-/


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 1ofaknd_@Mar 21 2005, 07:33 PM
> *if i plug in ohm's law, i figure about 2500-2600 watts when i burped it.  do i really gotta go take pics of the meter when i do it??  :biggrin:  lmao
> [snapback]2884193[/snapback]​*


Ohms law for 2500 watts would be 250 amps of draw with that amp. There is no way in hell you are drawing 250 amps and maintaining 14.3v. Where are you applying ohms law? Those amps dont do 2500 watts to begin with


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Stealth_@Mar 21 2005, 07:40 PM
> *mine still dim.
> 
> naaa the reasoning is; the reason lights dim when the bass 'hits' is because at those points the amp(s) is(are) drawing more than usual, and so therefore voltage in the entire car will drop (and you see the effect of this in the lights dimming).
> ...


I know how they are SUPPOSED to work, I'm just puting a realistic scenario into newbs heads.


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## 1ofaknd (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ibanender_@Mar 21 2005, 09:41 PM
> *Ohms law for 2500 watts would be 250 amps of draw with that amp.  There is no way in hell you are drawing 250 amps and maintaining 14.3v.  Where are you applying ohms law?  Those amps dont do 2500 watts to begin with
> [snapback]2884804[/snapback]​*


voltage squared divided by resistance....51v at the terminals.


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 1ofaknd_@Mar 21 2005, 09:58 PM
> *voltage squared divided by resistance....51v at the terminals.
> [snapback]2884914[/snapback]​*


Here's the problem with that.... you dont know the resistance. It's called IMPEDANCE for a reason, its not resistance alone, it changes. Resistance doesnt change, impedance does. Presuming you had it wired at 1 ohm DCR in a large ported box, your actual impedance during play is probably closer to 3 ohms, which means you'd have about 860 watts. That's about 85 amps of draw presuming you had 14.3v. My guess your alternator is maybe a 130 amp factory.


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## 1ofaknd (May 31, 2003)

forget what i said...it drops to 13.8...dunno why i thought different, lol


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 1ofaknd_@Mar 22 2005, 05:08 PM
> *forget what i said...it drops to 13.8...dunno why i thought different, lol
> [snapback]2889958[/snapback]​*


Now THAT is more realistic..... but you still are under 900 watts


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## 1ofaknd (May 31, 2003)

what's the proper way to measure the current the amp is drawing?


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 1ofaknd_@Mar 22 2005, 08:30 PM
> *what's the proper way to measure the current the amp is drawing?
> [snapback]2890948[/snapback]​*


With a clamp meter, since that measures current draw. DC current of course.


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## 1ofaknd (May 31, 2003)

measure it at the amp right?


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 1ofaknd_@Mar 22 2005, 10:28 PM
> *measure it at the amp right?
> [snapback]2891407[/snapback]​*


Yes, right at the amp. If you want to know actual output of the amp... pick a tone, like where its loudest at for instance (what we do for SPL, because the loudest point is what matters right?) and take the AC amperage and AC voltage reading. If you dont have true RMS meters you can hold it for about 3 seconds and after the first 2 seconds it should level off on both meters.


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## Hoss805 (Mar 11, 2005)

GET A BATCAP


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## 1ofaknd (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ibanender_@Mar 22 2005, 05:37 PM
> *Now THAT is more realistic..... but you still are under 900 watts
> [snapback]2890085[/snapback]​*


so a hifonics 1500(900wrms remember?) does more power then my 2500??


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Hoss805_@Mar 23 2005, 06:39 PM
> *GET A BATCAP
> [snapback]2896096[/snapback]​*


GET A REASON FOR POSTING.


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 1ofaknd_@Mar 23 2005, 07:51 PM
> *so a hifonics 1500(900wrms remember?) does more power then my 2500??
> [snapback]2896358[/snapback]​*


There is a difference in doing, and whats being done. I doubt you are using it to its fullest.


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## JUICEDEXPL (Oct 10, 2004)

With a 200amp alt, red top optima under the hood, wired in parallel with a batcap, i maintain 15.6v, with my stereo playing it drops down to around 15.2/3.
memphis 1000D
memphis3004


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JUICEDEXPL_@Mar 23 2005, 10:17 PM
> *With a 200amp alt, red top optima under the hood, wired in parallel with a batcap, i maintain 15.6v, with my stereo playing it drops down to around 15.2/3.
> memphis 1000D
> memphis3004
> [snapback]2897086[/snapback]​*


Is that 15.6v before or after you realize you shoulda bought a DMM that was accurate?


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## maniak2005 (Mar 13, 2005)

I need to get a fucking life all I do is talk shit :machinegun:


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## Brahma Brian (Nov 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by maniak2005_@Mar 23 2005, 10:31 PM
> *I need to get a fucking life all I do is talk shit :machinegun:
> [snapback]2897146[/snapback]​*


Truer words were never spoken...


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## Brahma Brian (Nov 17, 2004)

> _Originally posted by ibanender_@Mar 23 2005, 10:28 PM
> *Is that 15.6v before or after you realize you shoulda bought a DMM that was accurate?
> [snapback]2897133[/snapback]​*


Nah, I say it was his digital display on his chrome capacitor...


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by maniak2005_@Mar 23 2005, 10:31 PM
> *I need to get a fucking life all I do is talk shit :machinegun:
> [snapback]2897146[/snapback]​*


Yes you do, go ask JL for advice on that.


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## 1ofaknd (May 31, 2003)

well i would hope at 14.4v the orion does a bit more then 900 watts....we'll see when i test it.


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by 1ofaknd_@Mar 23 2005, 11:45 PM
> *well i would hope at 14.4v the orion does a bit more then 900 watts....we'll see when i test it.
> [snapback]2897549[/snapback]​*


14.4v will do more power, but you wont have 14.4 during play is the point. You also have impedance rise from the subs, which limits power. If you are running that amp at recommended impedance and have 14.4v on it, you still wont see more than 1800-1900 out of that amp. With the voltage you've got, I would expect 1500ish out of it unless you are at a frequency with an irregularly low impedance.


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## JUICEDEXPL (Oct 10, 2004)

> _Originally posted by ibanender_@Mar 23 2005, 08:28 PM
> *Is that 15.6v before or after you realize you shoulda bought a DMM that was accurate?
> [snapback]2897133[/snapback]​*


yeah i guess fluke doesnt make the decent stuff....i might have to go shopping for a new one...


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## ibanender (Jan 31, 2004)

> _Originally posted by JUICEDEXPL_@Mar 24 2005, 06:09 PM
> *yeah i guess fluke doesnt make the decent stuff....i might have to go shopping for a new one...
> [snapback]2901463[/snapback]​*


I guess you need to learn how to use it, or get your truck fixed. 15.6v makes your ECU die. A low battery in the meter will yield wrong readings as well.


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## 1ofaknd (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ibanender_@Mar 24 2005, 06:43 PM
> *  A low battery in the meter will yield wrong readings as well.
> [snapback]2901654[/snapback]​*


damn right it does...i killed a sub cuz of that.


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